The Jewish Psychedelic Podcast

00:01.81

shefaflow

Um, where are you.

00:11.85

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, boom.

00:19.20

Mitchell Gomez

Ah, Denver or outside of Denver I live in the mountains and we are getting hammered with snow right now. So hopefully internet will be stable and if it's not we will deal with that as it happens. But yeah, it's ah it is really really coming down right now. Yeah.

00:32.30

shefaflow

Boy how long have you been there.

00:36.88

Mitchell Gomez

I've been in this house for 7 years um I was born in Colorado though. Um, and so yeah, my father's family was in San Louis Colorado when it was San Louis mexico so like the part of Mexico we're from is Colorado.

00:53.63

shefaflow

Um, so I.

00:55.40

Mitchell Gomez

Because they were running from the inquisition right? So you always wanted to be on the very edge of the empire. Um, so like founding family of Santa Fe and sixteen Eight ibeque in 1620 San Louis by seventy hundreds

01:07.20

shefaflow

And then before that like Portugal or Spain proper. Yeah always gomez or was the there a name. A.

01:12.36

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, yeah, portugal Cobra always Gomez. It used to end with an s um they changed it to a z because s was a sephardic jewish spelling. Whereas ending it with a z meant that it was potentially just spanish right? So there's vanishingly few gomez is left that have it with an s because you know it was illegal to be if you could get out of portugal before they did the forced conversion. It was not illegal to be jewish right? But once they forced you to convert.

01:47.95

Mitchell Gomez

Then if you continue to practice judaism then it was illegal and so yeah I have ah I have copies the originals are in Santa Fe but yeah one of my ancestors was arrested by the inquisition in Santa Fe ah for being a jew. Yeah.

02:03.70

shefaflow

Wow. Um, so you missed that you missed the conversion you missed utter destruction. You kept moving the families kept moving. You know what did they? What did they hold onto.

02:18.30

Mitchell Gomez

Ah, yeah I mean not a ton. Um, you know the there were always these sort of rumors in my father's side of the family. Um, but my father was raised very disconnected from both his sapharti Jewish heritage and also from his native American heritage right? So it was a.

02:36.14

Mitchell Gomez

This is my theory but when you look at these families that were safati. Ah they very often married other families that might have been safati or native americans I think because it was safer than marrying a catholic right? So if you're a jewish man who's being raised secretly. Jewish. And you marry a native american woman hey once a year we both go to church right? You do your thing I do my thing we build a life together I think I really think that was part of the dynamic I do because if you look at their marriage records. It's shocking how often these crypto jew families were marrying into native american families. Um, it.

03:10.36

shefaflow

So every ah the margins of white culture. Still you know, being able to mix and mingle and hang out with each other.

03:15.34

Mitchell Gomez

Right? right? Um, and also always on the edge of the empire right? So you always you didn't want to be in Mexico City because then you would end up like the carva halls who I'm also a descendant of not ah Lewis de carva hall the main person who was. Like the center of that trial but his father's brother is one of my ancestors right? So I'm not He's not in my direct line but I do have Carva Hall ancestry and yeah, he I mean he had a little you know had a little prayer book they called they caught him with you know? so. That that side of the family There's no question like he was he went you know to his he was facing execution. He ended up throwing himself out of a ah window of the office of the inquisition is the story. Um, how how often the stories about suicide are true or how often the office of the inquisition use that to.

03:59.90

shefaflow

Wow.

04:08.41

Mitchell Gomez

Ah, explain away the fact that they had tortured someone to death which they were not supposed to do right? The whole idea is they could like torture you to confess but they weren't supposed to torture you to death. Um, but that's the story and yeah, they found his prayer book. He was very public about my family. My father was forced to convert. We never chose this I'm I'm a jew. Ah. And so yeah I have ah that Carva Hall ancestry as well and then my mother's family is ashkenazi. So I was primarily raised ah Ashkenazi I mean that was my father was so disconnected from his jewish ancestry that he actually did like a formal conversion process as an adult he wanted to. Be jewish again. Um, and so converted married my mother reconverted is a term that people are now starting to use in the 80 s that was not part of the narrative right? Um, but very much converted with this understanding of like there was this ancestry. Ah, so reconversion I think is appropriate right? I mean I think that's an appropriate terminology. Ah particularly when you're talking about people who didn't leave judaism right? they were. They were forced out of judaism. Um by what was arguably the most powerful government in the world at that time.

05:08.14

shefaflow

Um, right.

05:19.24

Mitchell Gomez

I mean the spanish and portuguese empire if you ever go to old churches in Portugal or Spain. Ah, you rapidly realize the idea that they owned half the world is not a joke like it's reflected in there the opulence of their churches from that time. Um, where you know. There's a reason that the majority of people who speak portugal are in Brazil right? There's far more portuguese speakers in the you know quote unquote new world than there are in Portugal and that's just a reflection of the fact that a bunch of guys in Europe Drew lines on a map and divided the world and it worked. I mean that's the I think that's the most astonishing thing is that it took so long to throw off that yoke of of colonial power. Um, you know I think there's countries in Africa that stopped being portuguese in french and italian colonies like in the sixty s like the 1960 s um, you know and so this was really the norm for just hundreds and hundreds of years is that this little section of Iberia Solarade you know where where jews had been since before the babylonian exile I mean those jewish communities don't date to the exile. These were traitors who had set up colonies in Europe. Ah, as part of like the spice trade and the wood trade and all of these things before before the exile and so yeah, if you look genetically at sepharta jews and theseai jews and ashknazi jews they form really distinct clusters right? They all share why Dna.

06:49.21

Mitchell Gomez

Links to the levant I mean that's where you know all of our origins lie but we were separated for so long that. Ah, yeah, that's we're very distinct clusters except for those of us like me who you know were but but the missionh mash is happening now I think particularly in Israel right? I mean it's I don't think i.

07:02.69

shefaflow

Yeah, the root part crewing the road. The roots start growing upwards and and out at some point for some.

07:08.47

Mitchell Gomez

Oh yeah, yeah, what? what are those? What are those trees that do that the they're in Florida the cypress trees right? It's the.

07:17.11

shefaflow

Yeah cypress so you this living cyrus of all of these histories and stories and ah your pockets of resilience and resistance. Um. And you know the first time that we met it was out here in San Francisco and you know the first thing that you asked me or you told me about was your time in Asia torah in Jerusalem like how did you get from Colorado and your lineage to studying Torah in this particular place.

07:47.99

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, ah so my mother lived in Israel during the 60 s and seventy s um and so I grew up often hearing these stories. Ah and my mother's family. We have everything from reform jews I mean I I primarily grew up in like a reform synagogue. To ah haredi I mean like all the way as far as it as far as it goes and so I was exposed to a really broad swath of of judaism growing up right? I mean I would go spend I always thought of them as summers. But I know it was winters but I would go from Colorado to Miami to see my grandparents. And my memories were always of it being so hot that I thought I was spending my summers there but it was definitely winters that was I was going to Miami and so ah yeah I mean grew up around. Ah you know Miami jewish culture which obviously has everything right from humanistic judaism all the way to you know the sort of temple mount faithful level of.

08:40.68

shefaflow

Death.

08:42.68

Mitchell Gomez

Of ah of haredi like these these folks who think that we should destroy the dome of the rock and rebuild the third temple and they're building the third temple right? It's a collapsible building that is in warehouses in in Jerusalem. It's yeah, ready to go I mean I could put it up in a weekend.

08:52.18

shefaflow

Ready to go.

08:58.44

Mitchell Gomez

They're planning to put it up in a weekend right? I mean that's the reality and so yeah, when I when I turned 18 I I really wanted to go overseas I had some money from my bar mitzvah my parents very smartly. Um. Did not ah really let me touch most of that money. So some of it I had going through high school but the majority of it was thrown into a bank account that I did not have access to and I'm tremendously thankful for that because god knows what I would have spent it on. Um or maybe I would have spent it on magically gatherings cards and I you know have a million dollar magic collection I have no idea. Ah.

09:32.19

Mitchell Gomez

So yeah I sold my sold my car I knew I was going for quite a long time and first went to Israel in 99 on a four month birthright program. So it was one of the longer Birthright programs. Ah they place you on a kibbutz. Um, you don't actually know which kibbutz until like a few days before you. Get to Israel like it's ah, really felt very last minute in my mind I'm not sure if that was the case or if that was an intentional decision to like not let you you know, dive too deeply before you landed. Ah. And so I ended up on kiba's from orhel which is right between jerusalem and Bethhelhem right? It's quite close to jerusalem probably walkable if you were a slightly different human than me I often did not walk I would take the bus. Ah.

10:10.28

shefaflow

Um, and um.

10:21.50

Mitchell Gomez

And so yeah I would spend a lot of my free time in both jerusalem and Bethlehem this was before the entirety of the wall was built right? This was pre second intifada. There was some security infrastructure between jerusalem and Bethlehem I do remember having to go like through. But I think that was mostly around.

10:27.39

shefaflow

Print.

10:38.14

Mitchell Gomez

Private property issues I don't think it was like the security wall I remember tall fences but I don't remember like the concrete wall that trip. Um, and so yeah I would like often walk into Bethlehem or take the bus into jerusalem. Ah.

10:55.00

Mitchell Gomez

And at the time you know I'd been bar mitzvahd of course and like you know I grew up in this family. Ah I didn't really think of myself as particularly religious I mean jewish morality still to this day like is the fundamental core of of who I am and how I navigate the world and what I believe. Ah, but I didn't think of myself as particularly religious I went to synagogue because my mother was the president of the hebrew day school. It was not really an option to not go to synagogue obviously um, but you know I have this memory of on yom kippur like sneaking out to walk to the burger King and just like the entire thing was filled with people from our synagogue right? I mean it was like it's. And like people who were like ah publicly quite religious. It was ah really a moment of of a realization that you can't.

11:35.57

shefaflow

Yeah, was that comforting or was that like as ah as a child looking at hypocrisy.

11:43.39

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah I think a little bit of both. Um I think you know the idea that ah being in community sometimes requires a compromise on your public and private life.

11:57.40

shefaflow

Ah.

11:57.49

Mitchell Gomez

Depending on the community. But that's true of most communities right? There's generally most communities. There's some sort of compromise that takes place between your private and public life. Um, and I don't know if that's necessarily hypocrisy I think it can be um I Also think that that's just.

12:11.80

shefaflow

Yeah, yeah.

12:15.57

Mitchell Gomez

How humans relate to the world right? Um, you know there's ah I forget that who wrote it but there's some science fiction story about you know humans all developing telepathy for a day and it like destroys society right? like suddenly this ability to like know what a person's true. Inner thoughts are like completely demolishes the nature of society and.

12:32.50

shefaflow

Sure.

12:35.29

Mitchell Gomez

I Think that's largely true I don't think society could survive. Um, if all humans became telepathic for a day I think that would be a tremendous problem for the vast majority of people in every given culture. Um.

12:47.56

shefaflow

Yeah I met meant just the the hypocrisy of a child sometimes you know seeing things in in more ah ah, binaries and not necessarily the the the sophisticated nuance that you're sharing. But.

12:59.49

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, yeah I I was raised in a family that I think really Values Nuance Binary thinking is not a thing that my parents really tolerated much as I was growing up. Um, you know they sent me to a lab school from Kindergarten through.

13:07.23

shefaflow

Um.

13:16.62

Mitchell Gomez

Fourth grade So they don't There's not a lot of them. It was ah a brilliant idea one that I wish had expanded but Lab schools are basically kindergarten through college on a single campus. Um, and even the kindergartners are being. Ah, oh.

13:18.74

shefaflow

And.

13:30.56

shefaflow

Okay, just making a note around the 13 minute Mark that Mitch has kind of glitched out. Okay.

13:35.40

Mitchell Gomez

Oh I lost you hold on hold on oh in my back am I back Hello hello.

13:49.59

shefaflow

Um, we'll see what his status is coming back coming back looking good. Yeah I'm here him can you hear me.

14:14.26

shefaflow

I'm I'm here. Can you hear me great. That's all good. No, it's so like 13 minute Mark um, your parents wouldn't tolerate binary thinking much more nuanced and then.

14:15.00

Mitchell Gomez

Are we back? Yeah I can hear you now sorry about that where did where did I drop off.

14:30.19

shefaflow

The freeze So we we'll edit it and it's all good.

14:32.49

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, perfect. Um, yeah so I perfect? Um, yeah, so growing up as a child my parents sent me to a lab school. Um, which yeah, um, a thing that I really would love to see expanded in this country seems unlikely, but it's kindergarten through college on a single campus.

14:37.18

shefaflow

Yeah, Lab school. Yeah.

14:50.25

Mitchell Gomez

All of the teachers are college teachers. So even in kindergarten I had college professors in our in our classrooms often very self-directed learning if you were interested in something they would encourage you to just like dive as deeply into it as you possibly could and so yeah, grew up really in a sort of. Intellectually curious environment where I was encouraged to sort of be as adult as I wanted to be and then my dad got a job in Florida and I got dropped into a public school in Florida in the fifth grade and it was a bit of a problem I don't think I ever actually fully. Ah.

15:10.86

shefaflow

Um.

15:15.38

shefaflow

Wow! the.

15:23.87

Mitchell Gomez

Recovered from that Intel college when I went to New College of Florida which has a similar sort of you can create your own degrees or had now that you know Desantis is trying to basically destroy it. But at the time you could create your own degrees. You could create your own class classes. You could create your own programs of study and in the founding Docs of new college.

15:29.19

shefaflow

Right.

15:43.60

Mitchell Gomez

Ah, is this principle that in the final analysis. Every student is responsible for their own education and so it was really from fifth grade till college I was missing that but that was a part of my very young life and then a part of my college career as well and it really is ah.

16:00.13

Mitchell Gomez

An idea worth diving into um for how we run education. Ah.

16:03.24

shefaflow

Ah, so with this background and you know hopping between bethlehem and downtown Jerusalem and the old city.

16:09.49

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, um, yes I went to the the kotel and the kotel got me right? The guys who asked have you ra to fillin today I I had not I had not in fact, rapped to fill in in probably I think the entire three four months I'd been in Israel I had not been in a synagogue I had not. Really prayed. So I did and ended up speaking for quite a long time with somebody who was there but wasn't there with the guys asking to wrap the fill in we just sort of connected and started talking ah at the time he was quite a young.

16:45.42

shefaflow

Who.

16:45.79

Mitchell Gomez

Rabbi not really established. Not really well known but it was yomov glazier and so by sort of pure happenstance ended up in this long conversation with Yom Tov who as a sort of well-des deserveved reputation as like a relatively psychedelic human like speaking with him is sort of a consciousness altering experience. He grew up sort of in hippie community still surfs so you know the surfing Rabbi although now much more the singing rabbi.

17:06.92

shefaflow

This is.

17:17.21

Mitchell Gomez

And is one of those people who I genuinely believe if we all gain telepathy for a day. Not a single thought about him would change I think he is privately and publicly the same person like that is who he is. Ah, and I I find that you know obviously you never know what's going on in another person's mind but ah, he's a really deep and interesting and mystical human who I really enjoyed spending time with and so when it came time for the end of my ah time at the at kios restaurant royal hell. You know I was dumb picking apples. Um and and making desserts in the hotel. Those are my two Keywiz jobs. Ah I actually I found a like a three week archeology program where you could volunteer on a dig so I was doing that for a few weeks ahtalmaishia which is a really.

17:51.34

shefaflow

Um, so beautiful.

18:03.39

shefaflow

This.

18:10.65

Mitchell Gomez

Very unknown but really awesome archeological site. They often find. Ah no, it's northern I believe it was a long time ago. But I think it's a little north um, because it's one of the areas where they find evidence of oshara worship quite late into the second temple period.

18:11.90

shefaflow

Where's that exactly outside of Jerusalem. Okay.

18:28.53

Mitchell Gomez

So in very very early judaism. The evidence is now quite strong that ah god had a wife right? There was ah ah alshara was was his wife. It was during the hezekiah reforms that that was really like stamped out by Hezekiah who was trying to centralize worship in Jerusalem. He destroyed all of these like rural temples.

18:41.51

shefaflow

Yeah, we have textual evidence and it's corroborated by the archeological record. Don't get that so often.

18:47.81

Mitchell Gomez

Um.

18:54.60

Mitchell Gomez

And also when you when you read the torah and you separate out the storylines right? There's the ah you hey valpes storyline and then the elohim storyline. There are clearly 2 different narratives that are mashed together in the torah. And in the elohim storyline you ah you don't see claims of monotheism you see claims of monolateralism right? You could only worship one god but you never see a denial of the existence of other gods. Um, writing even elolal great.

19:13.50

shefaflow

But.

19:19.66

shefaflow

Yeah, we have that and't and this week's partsha right? and we're recording during partshha basalah. But we're recording for purra you meet kamoha ba alim a nay who is like you amongst the alim amongst the the divine. Retinue meaning the existence of the retinue is is right there but only that yohe vavhe stands above all of them.

19:40.79

Mitchell Gomez

Um, right? yeah right? And ah yeah, the for anyone who's interested in this I know we're getting way off the subject but the bible and.

19:51.14

shefaflow

And no, it's good.

19:56.89

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, the bible on earth is a spectacular book on ah the sort of archaeological evidence of how judaism changed over time ah within the sort of indigenous development within canon because it's. Quite clear that this was a local religious movement right? We did not. You don't see any evidence in the archaeological record of like a jewish invasion into canan even though that is the narrative that was presented by the hezekiah reforms right? That narrative was written quite late in judaism um, and. Doesn't really match the historical evidence and I find all of this so fascinating for a lot of reasons. Ah but 1 of the big ones is that figuring out what judaism has meant over time I think allows us a window into what we wish to be judaism. Right? At this point I substantially consider myself a humanistic jew I you know I believe in the principles and the moral foundations of judaism. Ah I am obviously far less convinced of the sort of divine authorship or inspiration of the torah I think that the torah was. A product of a specific time and place and a specific political agenda right? I mean it's a political treaty by Hezekiah about why worship should be centralized in Jerusalem. Ah presents an image of the size of the kingdom of judea that is almost certainly just historically not true.

21:21.72

Mitchell Gomez

Um, ju um, you know there was clearly a judean kingdom I mean we find evidence all the time but we find it in Jerusalem and the environs right? We don't find evidence of this judean kingdom in Iraq right? which is like what the the textual claim is within the torah is that it was. You know, basically the euphrates out and so we don't find any evidence of that and so yeah, it's we havent yet we haven't yet and god knows if they found something if if iraqi archaeologists found something in Iraq I do not know if that would be public information in the same way that if we found evidence of ah.

21:42.43

shefaflow

We haven't yet we haven't yet. But yeah, ah.

21:55.94

shefaflow

Yeah, of course.

21:57.73

Mitchell Gomez

The things I'm talking about right about Hezekiah doing these edits I'm not hundred percent sure how that would trickle out either if it was found in the current political climate within Israel and so yes, but yes I think that the reading the torah as a document that is a product of a time and place is appropriate.

22:01.80

shefaflow

Sure.

22:16.45

Mitchell Gomez

Um, but also I think that you know reading the massive body of Jewish literature that has grown up around the Torah that deals far more with ethics than the Torah itself often does right? I mean the Torah is ah. Often more a history book and a law book. It doesn't really dive deeply into the why the why is because has I'm said to right? I mean that's the sort of extent of the of of the why often within the within the Torah but you know we have all of these mutualhi that are I genuinely believe this I. The greatest sort of self-contained moral code that has been developed by man so far it is a moral code that if followed does provide tremendous value both to the individual and to community as a whole. And so even though I I you know I I mean I you know I have Mo this is on my doors I consider myself a jew you know I don't pray over my food before I eat right? Um, although it is a practice that I've actually been considering sort of.

23:15.63

shefaflow

Your.

23:26.86

Mitchell Gomez

Reincorporating mostly as a mindfulness practice around ah the remembrance that even as a vegetarian. Ah my sustenance causes harm right? like the way that we run agriculture my ability to eat causes harm to the world. Ah, and so as a sort of mindfulness practice around the importance of remembering that our our mere existence creates harm and so we have an obligation to mitigate that harm by providing value to the world I think is a really powerful practice and one that we again. That's not a. That's not a modern take on on jewish existence right? This idea that god created the world and then handed it to humanity right? whereas within the christian tradition. There's sort of this idea that like god is the caretaker of the world. Um. This is one of the many areas where there really is no judeo-christian tradition. There's a there's a judeo islammic tradition right? Judaism and islam agree perfectly on this point that the the world was created and then the stewardship of the world was given to humanity. Ah, it. This is I think actually interestingly one of the areas where I didn't realize as I moved into harm reduction. How deeply judaism was informing my beliefs around drug policy and harm reduction. But this is one of those areas where I think it really shows up right? I mean the fact that faults and prayers within judaism without action is a sin.

24:59.77

Mitchell Gomez

But you don't get to just pray about a problem. You actually have a moral obligation to fix the problem or you have sinned ah hold on I can do this problem. The batta law is that this is that is and yeah, yeah, there we go all? Well it's been a long time since yeshiva.

25:07.43

shefaflow

You got it? Yeah brush. Yeah yeah, you're doing great. You.

25:18.57

Mitchell Gomez

Um, and so yeah, Ah, if you the immediate commandment is if you make a prayer over food and then you don't immediately eat the food. You've you've sinned ah but that principle like everything in Judaism right? here's the specific. You can't cook ah a baby goat in his mother's milk. And now suddenly we build a fence around this right and suddenly you can't use the same dishes for meat and cheese from that original principle of not cooking a goat in its mother's milk which to me actually reads as a prohibition against Needless cruelty. Right? Like that's how it reads to me and always has not as a dietary restriction. The restriction is actually on being needlessly cruel. But this idea that. Ah oh we have this problem in society like we'll just like let we'll let God take care of it. We'll let government take care of it. Right? Doesn't fly in Judaism we each as individuals. Once we have identified a problem within society ah are commanded to work towards its resolution both because of ah tikun alarm but also because of this idea of of ah. You can't do a blessing without doing the thing and blessings in Judaism have always read to me as not so much. Ah, an axe an ask for intercession from the divine.

26:41.60

Mitchell Gomez

I mean I think that's how in a christian we're all raised in the the milieu of christianity in America whether or not we were raised jewish um, and when people say like oh I had I prayed for this or I blessed this ah in christianity you are asking the divine for direct interce intercession.

26:57.33

shefaflow

Intercession. Yeah.

26:59.51

Mitchell Gomez

Direct Involvement Yeah direct involvement in the thing in Judaism. That's not really what prayers are right? I mean the prayers are our reminder our acknowledgement of ah Hashem has created this thing and we are now able to use it to survive. And so we are simply acknowledging the reality that I'm doing the Yeshiva hand thing as soon as they start talking about Juism about you. Never do this on any other side I Gett into judaism. Yeah yeah I get into Judaism and I then ah yeah, but it's this acknowledgement of ah.

27:18.58

shefaflow

I Love it I'm loving it man you're you're you're having a full blown somatic experience.

27:35.53

Mitchell Gomez

The connection between us as individuals the world as the place which allows us as individuals to exist and a reminder that because we have been blessed right? We are not blessing the food. We have been blessed with the food. And so that's really the direction of of ah of brahold within judaism of Prayers within Judaism. Ah yeah.

27:57.15

shefaflow

Yeah, and even the the statement of the statement of need and the admission of lack regardless of of where the fulfillment of it comes from to be able to express one's needs as having um value and there's. The dignity enough that one's needs could be fulfilled and and and asked for feels like a regardless of where one is with regards to the power of divinity humanist or otherwise could also be a very just ah, a powerful notion and practice.

28:30.88

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, yeah I think just in general as a species I think it's easy for us to go to autopilot right? It's easy for us to sort of start moving through the world without thinking about the world. Ah, and.

28:43.15

shefaflow

Of people.

28:48.24

Mitchell Gomez

The Torah and and therashima around it and you know the whole thing the whole system of judaism. Um, at its heart is a focusing lens on our need to provide value to the world. Ah.

29:07.40

Mitchell Gomez

Or obligation ah to provide value to the world and it's something that existed so deeply within my consciousness this idea that we have an obligation to repair the world that I didn't really connect it to how I had been. Academically and professionally moving towards ending drug harms. Um, but the more I've you know this is ah I've been you know I've spoken about this a few times now there is the jewish psychedelic conference a few years ago which I believe is how we first became aware of each other was that that was through that jewish pychedelic conference if I'm remembering correctly i.

29:42.38

shefaflow

Um, yeah.

29:45.67

Mitchell Gomez

It Really it really is like this idea of Tikun Alum ah sits really really deeply in how I think about drugs and drug harms and the ideas around pickco and fesh right? This idea that within Judaism we have not only the ability but the. Requirement to break any law to save a life right? This is not just a not just ah, an option. It is a commandment. Ah.

30:12.54

shefaflow

Right? Even something as severe as Shabbat if you see that someone is in threat of losing their life One can basically um, cast off every every mitzvah every commandment in order to save that person's life.

30:30.41

Mitchell Gomez

Right? And ah, you know obviously within judaism its vote are are much higher obligations than temporal governmental laws right? And so if we have an obligation to break any mitzvah or any prohibition. To save a life certainly we are required to violate ah the laws of man to save a life and so you know the fact that many of the services that are provided within harm reduction are not legal. Right? I mean there are underground safe use facilities all over this country people who are running spaces where people can come and use opiates under you know, quasi medical supervision that is a crime and as a jew I have no choice but to view that as. A justified violation of the law because of baginavish you know the test kits are considered drug paraphernalia in 30 some odd states right? I might be the most arrestable person in drug policy like if a da really wanted to push this issue. It would be very very easy to order a test kit file an arrest warrant. And I would be happy to have this conversation in front of a jury right about my religious and moral obligation to save a life. Ah, and I've never been able to find any historical evidence of this but within western common law. There is this idea of a necessity defense.

31:55.54

Mitchell Gomez

And I think this may have come from judaism because it seems unlikely to have come from christianity and so it's this idea that if you broke a law to save a life within this is Us law all the way back to british common law. That's how old this principle is ah. It is an affirmative defense in court. It does not prevent you from being arrested or charged but is a thing you can say to a jury as yes I broke the law my defense for that breaking of the law is that it was required to save a life this shows up most often when people run red lights to get to hospitals right? This is a necessity defense within.

32:25.39

shefaflow

And.

32:31.30

Mitchell Gomez

That behavior if you were running a red light to get somebody to a hospital because the level of emergency rose to that severity. You can prevent. You can present that in court. As a reason why running that red light was not actually illegal and so yeah, that's always been the plan. It just seems vanishingly unlikely and less likely every year it's going to come up. Ah, the fentanyl adulteration crisis has really changed the conversation around drug checking and changed the conversation around harm reduction in a way that actually makes me quite uncomfortable. We should have been proactive around this right when it was poor. Ah you know people of color primarily dying from opiates that conversation was not happening. Um, you know the idea that we would open safe use facilities was talked about as like enabling junkies right? I mean that was the the language. Um and now that it's like rich white kids dying from fentanyl and cocaine. Suddenly it's not an epidemic. It's ah or not a scourge It's an epidemic right? It's moved into like this public health language. Ah.

33:10.52

shefaflow

I.

33:22.63

shefaflow

Right? right? crisis right.

33:28.41

Mitchell Gomez

Although I will say that the response from Public Health My dog is insisting I open this door for her. We will get continue this. It's up you yes I know like very hard. Yeah, yeah, and we can also I don't I don't believe I have a hard stop time. Let me just make sure.

33:31.48

shefaflow

It's okay, yeah, go for it. We're pausing at 33 minutes and 30 seconds until the dog is let in.

33:45.88

shefaflow

It's okay sweetie okay all good. It's okay.

33:46.60

Mitchell Gomez

Um, let's see she just wanted to open the door to walk out three feet and turn around I just heard her walk back in the room. Um yeah I do not have a hard stop time so because I know we got a little and a little bit of a late start. Um, yeah, ah, but yes, what I was saying is this. This language shift that has happened despite the fact that there has not been a commensurate policy shift right? We have not yet seen the public health officials certainly at the federal level um, navigate this in the way that I think it needs to be navigated i. I love drug checking as a service I love setting up at events and testing people's drugs. It's super fun. It provides a really good window to talk about drugs in a super honest way and it is also just literally shoveling the ocean with a fork when it comes to misrepresentation. This is a. All drug deaths combined the numbers are not yet out for 2023 but I've seen the trends and I've seen some of the preliminary data and I think for 2023 we will have lost 3 times as many people to drug deaths as we did to aids in the peak year of the h iv crisis.

34:48.80

shefaflow

And.

34:52.50

Mitchell Gomez

We were talking about a massive public health crisis. Ah for people under the age of 40 drug deaths were the leading cause of death in all fifty states during covid right? like during a separate massive public health crisis that was killing people. Drugs were still the leading cause of death for people under the age of 40 in all 50 states. It is the leading cause of death overall in some states which is astonishing when you look at the sort of age demographics of our population and the sort of aging boomer generation which is now starting to pass away. Ah. This is not a thing that nonprofits can fix like period. Ah, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try in the same way that nonprofits probably cannot fix homelessness right? That doesn't mean you don't have nonprofits addressing the problem. But what I am saying is that the scale of the problem of drug adulteration and drug misrepresentation and drug debts. Overall. Is one that requires a coordinated federally funded public health response. Um, and ultimately I don't think it is solvable without not just decriminalization but the legalization of drug sales I think that providing people with the drugs they want through some sort of regulated model. Ah, is likely our only way out of this ah which is a politically heavy lift right? The idea that we're going to sell cocaine and heroin um through some sort of regulated whether that's I don't think having it be as like a for profit system the way that cannabis was done is appropriate at all I'm not asking to see Cocaine billboards.

36:23.20

Mitchell Gomez

Um, as funny as it would be right? but that's not what I'm asking for? Yeah yeah, f float is ready to go right? I mean there's you got that highway coming out of Miami across the alligator alley like just but you know it's good to go and like honestly.

36:24.16

shefaflow

Ah, Florida your home state sounds like a um.

36:37.76

Mitchell Gomez

For that city they might as well I don't think it would increase use any in Miami I think everyone who is in Miami who wants to use cocaine today is using cocaine today and so I don't think prohibition actually does anything when it comes to affecting use. Actually that's not true I think there's probably a small percentage of people who just don't do things that aren't legal. Um, I do think that if we legalize drug sales across the board. We would see a small increase in use I don't actually care about the number of people who use drugs I care about drug harms right in the same way that I don't care who a person marries right? like that is just not. A sphere of influence in another person's life that I believe is an appropriate use of state power and I feel the exact same way about drug use I simply don't think it is an appropriate use of state power to tell people what drugs they can consume what drugs they can purchase what drugs they can sell i. And as we've seen the sort of secondary harms of prohibition just vastly outweigh any possible benefit that we receive from these policies not just in the sphere of adulteration misrepresentation in the suppression of religious liberty. Right? I mean there was a rabbi in Denver who was using psilocybin as part of his practice. Um I believe very sincerely I do not think this was in any way performative I think this was a so a sincere religious belief who was arrested and ultimately I don't believe went to jail but had to spend oh it did not perfect. Good to hear. Um I thought that was my understanding.

37:57.92

shefaflow

Did not. Yeah, yeah.

38:06.43

Mitchell Gomez

But spent a tremendous amount of money defending his religious beliefs and in this country you should not have to raise money to defend your religious beliefs from government interference that is a very core principle of this country and I cannot imagine any world in which an adult using psilocybin as part of their religious practice. Is somehow more harmful than a person raising their child to be like a young earth creationist right? The harm to the world from the second act is far greater than the harm to the world of the first and yet you would never hear an american politician suggest using police power. To like seize these children and force them into public education where realistically they would receive a far better education than they are from somebody who's teaching them that Satan Hid dinosaur bones during the flaw or you know, whatever the whatever the current narrative is from from these young earth creationists who clearly don't read Hebrew. Because if you read Hebrew and you read genesis there is just no question that is this is not. It was never intended as a literal story like that is textually clear from the the evidence this was meant as metaphor and allegory and ah storytelling right? I mean it was storytelling. Around our innate desire as humans to have a ah narrative of where we come from? Um, but like yeah.

39:24.57

shefaflow

Um, so maybe if we could talk about storytelling a little bit for a second. Um, we're we're um, other than you like the story of dance safe and all of the information about the organization that you are stewarding will be available for people to check out I really wanted to get your. Um, to your your read specifically about um the holiday of purim and um the the mitzvah the obligation of drinking and at the same time. Ah the other voices that are trying to.

39:50.77

Mitchell Gomez

Oh so.

40:01.59

shefaflow

Um, Mitigate or reduce harm in this particular ritual ecstatic act. So I'm sure that you have thought about some of this before. Um and I'm wondering like where where is your where is your mind.

40:13.26

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah.

40:18.46

shefaflow

To this these days.

40:21.29

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, yeah, so first I want to tell my favorite ah kabbalistic story about purim I've ever heard and then we can dive in deeply so I had a rabbi in in Israel. Ah.

40:28.47

shefaflow

Great.

40:37.27

Mitchell Gomez

Who would often sort of drop little pieces of of Kabbalistic knowledge. Even though they're That's not really supposed to happen until you're much much older than I was at the time and have studied the Torah much more deeply. Um it it does seem to all be gone. It does seem to be that like.

40:42.67

shefaflow

Um, yeah, they've paused that it's all good now. Yeah, ah.

40:50.94

Mitchell Gomez

I mean when you can buy the ah ah the zillhar on Amazon right? It's like where where is that where' is the the line here right? I mean books used to be a controllable thing and now that is just not the the case anymore. Ah and he told me that there was a secret meaning to the name yom kippur.

40:51.16

shefaflow

Yeah.

41:08.21

Mitchell Gomez

Which is that the real name of yom kippur is yom kippurim, it's a day like purim a date almost as holy as purim and the main sort of narrative of purim is that you are supposed to become so intoxicated that you lose the narrative. But you can no longer tell the difference between the good guy and the bad guy in the story and that is the commandment is to become that um, intoxicated and the reason is that at its heart judaism although started as monolateralist and became monotheistic. Much of judaism is actually non-dualistic right? Ah, the the Shama does not read in hebrew as a claim of monotheism it claims as a reed of non-d duality god is one not there is only one god right? You could say that in Hebrew and that is not what the shaal says. Shamal says god is one and at one point I asked a ah Rabbi about this about this because I had studied hinduism and in high school and so I was worried I was imposing this sort of like odd by Dantic you know misread on the shama.

42:15.61

shefaflow

Oh.

42:24.44

Mitchell Gomez

And I asked him you know to me the shamaah now reads more and more as a claim of Non-d Duality not a claim of monotheism and I'll never forget he said he said he didn't say me he said moshe So it mosha own is my my other name. Ah and he said moshe.

42:37.96

shefaflow

Um, good good.

42:42.94

Mitchell Gomez

How could anything exist outside of the infinite like what do you think infinite means and so the emporium we're supposed to live our lives most of the year three hundred and sixty four days out of the year as if things like good and evil are real as if ah. It's volta are real as if prohibitions are real but one day a year we are commanded to become so altered that we remember the ultimate truth which is god is one ah, but that's just not a useful way of navigating the world right? like living. These non-dualalistic avidontic communities in India you're only allowed to join them once you've had a family and had a child right? You can't as a young person move into these like you know, shavi sadu oddvidontic communities because once you do you're not navigating the world anymore. You are just living in godhood god mind. Um, and so yeah, that's that's my favorite story about for him. Ah.

43:41.47

shefaflow

As a beautiful story about purum and you so in there you mentioned there's this um the the commandment for drinking on purum does not necessarily come from the book of esther itself. Although drinking is ah the I think the the major the main character of. Of the story but something actually from the babylonian talmud I believe it's in the massehet the tracate of maggiah and it opens up with a statement and says a person is obligated to become intoxicated on purum. Until they are so intoxicated that they don't know how to distinguish between a saying of which is cursed is haman cursed is the the main antagonist that like you said the bad guy of the story and the saying blessed is Mordechai one of the heroes of the story. So that's where. That idea comes hi of enish the visume a person is obligated to drink that much until the binary of good evil Mordechai Hamman melts away.

44:48.45

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, and you know there's more and more evidence now of ah psychedelic use within the ancient world right? The eleusian mysteries now is entirely uncontroversial. That's a maybe 4 hour boat ride from haifa. Right? We are not talking massive distances. There's evidence of psychedelic use within ancient egyptian culture particularly their mystery schools probably used high dose lotus or maybe some sort of ergot preparation. Ah, and I know this is a really controversial belief. Um, but I think the evidence for psychedelic use within early judaism is also quite strong I yeah I one of the biggest pieces to me is ah the showbred right? This bread that the high priest would consume within the holy of holies to commune with god ah.

45:22.95

shefaflow

Strong. Oh.

45:41.25

Mitchell Gomez

Which in Hebrew with bread of faces is like another valid sort of way that you can read that like I can't think of a better description of a psychedelic cracker than the bread of faces like that's just like yep, that's what I would call that psychedelic cracker ah, and I believe it is in Deuteronomy where if a woman is accused of adultery. She is taken to the temple and given the threshings of the showbread right? that the sort of stuff on the floor from when you made the showbred and if she is innocent of adultery she will have this transcendent vision of of angels. Although I think they're.

46:14.45

shefaflow

The.

46:20.25

Mitchell Gomez

Angels is the english translation I think they're actually the I forget the name the chair that Ezekiel right? Not there. It's not a living. Yeah yeah, um, and if she's guilty. Ah her limbs will turn dark and she'll die which is a description of ergot poisoning right? and this is not like in some sort of like in that.

46:22.10

shefaflow

Yeah, the Miracle Va yeah.

46:36.20

shefaflow

I.

46:38.68

Mitchell Gomez

Tall motor in the me draw she like this is core texturual torah description of ergot poisoning from somebody consuming the showbread I also further think that the showbread was widely used by all jews before the Hezekiah reforms his attempt to centralize worship within the priesthood. I think is when the use of this psychedelic sacrament was sort of like phased out of judaism I think it's why he destroyed all of the other temples because they knew how to make the the bread of faces or another better translation than showbread is the bread which shows. Right? So the the bread that the bread that can show you the bread that we are explicitly told priests would consume in the holy of holies to speak directly to hashan right? I mean to speak directly to god. Ah.

47:35.91

Mitchell Gomez

And the story of purim reads to me as first of all a much older tradition than the persian cultural narrative which was imposed on top of it right? I think that the way folklore study folklore is really useful in this context where you don't look at the names of the characters. You don't look at the claimed time and place because those change. But the larger sort of narrative structure of stories is how folklorists classify folklore because obviously if I was telling a story to a child now I likely would not set it in ancient Persia right? I would set it at their high school and so these stories change over time. Ah, we're seeing this with Yucca Mountain where we're storing our radioactive weights that's going to last for maybe millions of years where they're into folklorists about how do we create cultural narrative not specific language not specific imagery.

48:16.83

shefaflow

Friends.

48:28.27

Mitchell Gomez

Cultural narrative to describe that area as dangerous because we need it to become folklore because it's going to survive far longer than english will survive as a language. It will be radioactive thousands of hundreds of thousands of years after english is no longer around and so you do it.

48:30.75

shefaflow

Yeah.

48:41.88

shefaflow

I Heard that one of those ah one of those ideas was also to institute like a a nuclear priesthood in order to yeah ah.

48:49.58

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, yeah, religion and folklore right? or genetically modified cats with glowing eyes and then creating cultural stories about glowing cats being dangerous is a real proposition and form a federal government document. That's a real thing. It's like well genetically engineer glowing eye cats.

49:01.53

shefaflow

Ah.

49:08.21

Mitchell Gomez

We will make sure they all live near Yucca Mountain and then that cultural narrative around glowing icats guarding dangerous places will survive Beyond language and so I think the story of Purium is an older story I think it is a psychedelic remnant of Judaism's Psychedelic history. Um.

49:14.26

shefaflow

Oh.

49:26.58

Mitchell Gomez

And if you haven't read the immortality key which is about how christianity likely began as a psychedelic mystery school I think I loved the book I I think the author did a great job and I don't think this was an oversight this was a matter of focus right? because it's already a pretty large dense read. But I think one of the things that would have really been good to mention. Is that Jesus was not introducing. Ah this idea of a psychedelic sacrament from outside judaism um, the galilee is one of those areas where oshara worship persisted where there were small temple cults that ah Hezekiah never controlled. And I think the broad use of a psychedelic sacrament within judaism survived in the galilee into that period. Um, and I think ah, Jesus and Mary were reintroducing ah this psychedelic sacrament that had only been wiped out a few hundred years before right? I mean I forget the exact years Hezekiah was around but it was.

50:20.70

shefaflow

Um, yes, yes.

50:21.73

Mitchell Gomez

But than Millennia right? It was within a a millennia of the lifetime of Jesus ah, and we see this like in the in the new testament where in Roman and jewish law a claim to be divine would be charged as blasphemy. But Jesus was not charged with blasphemy. He was charged with sorcery. Do you happen to know the coin word for like the coin Greek term for sorcery the actual charge that Jesus faced. Yeah, it's a.

50:49.97

shefaflow

I Had to do a pass fail for my Ko a class. Oh yeah, a farm key of course.

50:59.33

Mitchell Gomez

Phar okeia right? And so I think that purium is a psychedelic myth a psychedelic story that was rewritten. Um Chris clearly the the story is about.

51:14.90

shefaflow

I have.

51:15.95

Mitchell Gomez

Ancient Persia right? It's about it's after the exile I believe it's like it's quite late in in jewish history. But that's not really the relevant data point. Um because stories change in their in their cultural context all the time. Ah, and this underlying idea that as jews we are commanded. Once a year to become so dissolved within this altered state of consciousness that we no longer can tell the story which we no longer tell the difference between ah cursed is the black bad guy and blessed is the good guy to me does not feel like an alcoholic tradition. Does not feel to me like a tradition that grew out of drinking culture because most of these mystery schools used some version of an ergot wine right? and so with an ergot based wine a functionally lsd wine little less safety margin.

52:08.90

shefaflow

Round.

52:13.35

Mitchell Gomez

Ah, but not terrible. Ah becoming that altered is actually quite easy as most of us know right? if you take just a little too much of that ergot derivative getting to a place where you are no longer able to follow the plot of a story is quite easy. Whereas with alcohol. It's It's not right I mean alcohol has a sort of different vibe now do I have any way of proving this This is again a storytelling right? Do I have any way of proving this history I Think at some point we will.

52:37.50

shefaflow

So that.

52:50.98

Mitchell Gomez

Probably find direct evidence of psychedelic use within Ancient Israel we will dig up a certain pot. We'll run chemical analysis on the inside of that pot which is quite common now. Archeochemistry is ah a growing field that often uses some of the same tools that danaf uses for drug checking right? the the buker alpha

52:58.60

shefaflow

Yeah.

53:07.17

shefaflow

Yeah.

53:07.67

Mitchell Gomez

Ftir that we use for drug checking is actually quite useful for archeochemist. Um, it's ah it's a sensitive piece of technology. It'll pick up very small amounts of things on the inside of a pot and if we follow.

53:17.37

shefaflow

Well certainly Cannabinoids Cannabinoids um have been found in an altar. Um.

53:25.11

Mitchell Gomez

Right? Cannabinoids ah, the fact that the burning bush is a plant with a huge amount of dmt and that Syrian Roo which has an aoi is also native to the area and spoken about as a you know, medicinal special plant. Ah, you could absolutely make an ayahuasca equivalent using only plants that grow within walking distance of the temple now that that is undeniably true like you could absolutely do that. Um, and if you burned both of them in an enclosed space. Ah the addition of Syrian Ru as an aoi would likely mean that you would not need to extract the dmt ah from the acacia in order to experience its smoked effects I'm going to close the door because I have some noise.

54:08.00

shefaflow

Okay, so pausing here around the 54 minute so maybe Mitch maybe like let me ask you because I don't get to have this this conversation very often. All of this kind of root history work and these. Speculative hypotheses about you know the potential for um, ah, hallucinogenic psychedelic compounds being used in early cultures that have grown into abrahamic faiths such as ours. Why does it ultimately matter um versus saying like ah. I have a box of drugs that I know work I don't really need it to show up in my root source tradition. So you know I'm I'm seeing like a lot of energy and interest and excitement not just from you but to others and I often am ah i'm.

54:56.79

Mitchell Gomez

Um, yeah.

55:03.17

shefaflow

I'm intrigued. But also you know that I don't need that. So can you tell me like why do you think that matters.

55:09.30

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, yeah, so I have a twofold answer um the first is that I I guess I don't right altered states of consciousness from non-drug sources are real Um, people have spontaneous mystical experiences which I think is probably. Somehow and related to endogenous and Ndmt or five meo dmt but that's just to say that every thought feeling emotion that we have is a drug experience within our brain right? Our brains generate consciousness through a right right? right? and so we are We are the Ape that.

55:33.84

shefaflow

Yeah I'm having a serotonin trip right now.

55:46.32

Mitchell Gomez

You know, seize drugs you know. However, you want to phrase it ah and so the fact that non-ordinary states of consciousness are part of judaism is undeniable right? There is simply no way to read ezekiel as anything other than a non-ordinary state of consciousness. Um, there's no way to read the narrative of ah of the exodus and the wanderings through the desert as anything other than a non-or very state of consciousness because that is a seven day walk right? like that it is not a 40 year experience in the desert that is a metaphorical description. Of a tremendous amount of time spent in search of a goal right? It is a description of a non-ordinary state of consciousness ah around yearning and longing for home and for. A place in which to be safe as yourself. Ah, whether those non-ordinary states of consciousness that became judaism were potentiated by outside drugs.

56:47.45

shefaflow

Right.

56:51.98

Mitchell Gomez

Or by inside ones right through other means I don't think is actually super important I I do think it's true like I think they were I think that drugs were a part of it. Um I think the evidence around the showbread and the acacia being so clearly delineated as an important part of.

57:01.37

shefaflow

Is.

57:11.54

Mitchell Gomez

The exodus the pillar of fire the burning Bush like the fact that the burning bush is the highest concentration of dmt outside of the new world I think those are unlikely to be accidents. That it's that that they just picked this random tree for no reason as being so important connecting it with burning connecting the burning with connection with hashem like that just seems really unlikely to be an accident to me. Um, that feels like a thing that is trying to preserve knowledge around the importance of that plant. And its connection to burning it and it non-ordinary states of consciousness and so yeah I think that I think it's true. Whether or not it's important. Um, but there isn't 1 small context in which I think it may be important and that is this sort of growing narrative that I think is appropriate and I think is real around. Ah. Cultural appropriation and respecting the cultural history of psychedelic using communities as we as predominantly sort of white westerners. You know I I don't actually think jews are white in the real meaning of the term but you know we are part of this white cultural milieu which involves. Exploitation of indigenous community. It involves. Ah you know financial taking from indigenous community. Um, and so the fact that there are like hundreds of indigenous tribes that have a relationship with psilocybin and now like white owned western pharmaceutical companies are trying to patent and control. It.

58:29.14

shefaflow

Extraction.

58:44.34

Mitchell Gomez

Does not sit well with me. There's a million psilocybin analogs by all means research those right I have no no issue at all with that. Um, there are some that are literally pro drugs I mean 4 a so dmt converts into silasin within your within your liver and so like yeah by all means. Ah. But to simply take this thing which you know most famously among the maztech is a survived tradition that dates back thousands of years before christianity and perhaps before judaism right? We might be talking about a cultural practice that predates judaism.

59:17.34

shefaflow

Yeah, that's that yeah.

59:19.66

Mitchell Gomez

Which is real hard to process because like we've been. We've been around for a while um and then to take that and remove it from that context and exploit it commercially I I don't love and so I think that from that perspective alone. It really makes sense to. Look really seriously at the potential psychedelic histories of our own traditions and see if those are things that we can connect with outside of the sort of exploitation and ah appropriation of indigenous psygular practices. So like I have personally never consumed Ayhuasca I've consumed phar ahuasca I've taken dmt and synthetic maois I actually used a a harmonline derivative drug that exists within medical markets. Ah. You also don't purge like the purging is primarily because of plant tannins and I don't like throwing up so like that was another sort of direct benefit to just creating a pharmaceutical preparation that was a similar drug experience. But the fact that you could walk into the hills between. Jerusalem and and Hevron you could walk on the land where abraham is buried and gather plants and cook them into a tea that would provide the same drug combination as ayahuasca. Why would we not just choose to connect with.

01:00:52.98

Mitchell Gomez

That right with our indigenous homeland um has the same plants. There's very strong evidence that our ancestors engaged with those plants in a way that was designed to alter consciousness. Ah, whether or not they did clearly the non-ordinary states of consciousness. Themselves are really core to what judaism was in those days right? The whole sort of ah even after the Hezekiah reforms right? The fact that the high priest on the holiest day went into a secret place to alter his consciousness. Right? explicitly described as altering his consciousness. The veil would rend and he would speak directly to god ah right I mean the the veil would part I guess is probably a better term said rending was from when the Christian the great story but the veil would part right? He would the the veils would open and he would see god.

01:01:38.15

shefaflow

A different a different story. Ah.

01:01:47.78

Mitchell Gomez

Like this is so hard for me to think of as something other than a psychedelic experience Even if there were no psychedelics involved right in the same way that you know we have these ah people who have non-ordinary states of Consciousness. Naturally. Are still really helped by the growing narrative around psychedelic integration right? because even if you didn't take a psychedelic and you have this am I allowed to talk about this I am a lot to talk about this So I know somebody who I will not out by name because part of their practice is secret but they do psychedelic Integration Psychotherapy that is the. That is the thing they do publicly the thing they do secretly is help people who have been traumatized by the experience of Alien Abductions. They've experienced psychological trauma because of this repeated abductee experience that they undergo and when I asked them.

01:02:36.77

shefaflow

Just just just.

01:02:41.78

Mitchell Gomez

What connection they saw between those 2 spheres of work because it felt really strange to me that those were the two things that they were really passionate about and they said to me that the connection is that with both cases. It doesn't actually matter if the experience that changed you.

01:02:46.81

shefaflow

Indeed.

01:03:01.56

Mitchell Gomez

Is Capital R Real or not right? if you have a really scarring psychedelic experience. You know you you get tackled by the police or even just internally right? You go into this like negative spiral and you have this really dark night of the soul psychedelic experience.

01:03:19.54

shefaflow

Right? multiple.

01:03:19.88

Mitchell Gomez

Is it helpful when you go talk to a therapist if they're like you just took a drug.. It's fine, right? Like no of course not it's the whole reason Psychedelic Integration Therapy exists now because that's that was the narrative and it's not helpful. It doesn't help these people who've been harmed and they said that's the same case with these Ufo abductees right? It doesn't matter. If. It's capital are real or not the trauma is real. The experience is real in the sense that you experienced it. Ah right in the same way that like just because you're your. Visit to hell happened while you were like in a tent at a festival right? and you know your body was in that tent at that Festival. You didn't go to hell it doesn't matter like that it was real to you and the trauma was real to you and so whether or not this is a drug experience.

01:04:03.94

shefaflow

Yeah.

01:04:10.10

shefaflow

So.

01:04:11.94

Mitchell Gomez

We're describing in early judaism or not in that sense doesn't matter the altered states of consciousness were real and they were a real part of what we now call judaism what we now practice as judaism this idea. That you have an obligation to move through the world in ethical ways is one that you often see grow out of people's psychedelic experiences right? This deep connection to others in the world and this recognition that ah there's a famous story about bug ah about ah Babaji Ramdas's guru.

01:04:48.93

Mitchell Gomez

It's actually attributed to several different people. But I I think Babaji is most likely where somebody asked him. Ah, how should we treat others and the answer was there are no others right? There are no others. There is only us there's only.

01:04:49.26

shefaflow

Um.

01:05:01.21

shefaflow

Um.

01:05:07.83

Mitchell Gomez

This 1 thing unfolding. Ah there is only this one present moment right? There is no actual place that is the future or place that is the past. Um, it's why I fundamentally do not believe time travel will ever be possible because there is no past to go to time is inexorably linked with space. We are moving through time in this in a sense that like we have a narrative of past present and future. But in reality. The only thing that actually exists is right now and like boy have psychedelics shown me that like in just the most powerful ways.

01:05:37.17

shefaflow

Circle.

01:05:46.16

Mitchell Gomez

Ah, and that idea that like there is no past to go to. There is no future. There is only now also shows up in judaism our understandings of the messianic age right is part of the reason that jews broadly simply did not accept Jesus as the messiah in first century palestine.

01:05:46.61

shefaflow

Okay, okay.

01:06:05.56

Mitchell Gomez

Because if he had been the messiah. We would not be. We would be living in the messianic age that is what it would mean for the muhif to come is that it is a fundamental shift in the now and if that shift hasn't happened the messhif has not come and so ah, you know this is.

01:06:17.85

shefaflow

And.

01:06:24.25

Mitchell Gomez

Why you know some Jews certainly converted. You know most of the early christians were former Jews but I think it's part of why christianity found so much more success outside of the Jewish world than inside. Um is because of this shift that was occurring within the understanding of what it means for the mushhiak to have come.

01:06:38.22

shefaflow

Are.

01:06:42.62

Mitchell Gomez

Um, and it worked within a a pagan context and I don't mean that as a majority of I Just mean it is a descriptor of the communities. Um, it worked within a pagan context that simply did not work within a Jewish context and not understanding. Yeah.

01:06:51.12

shefaflow

So let let me bring you go sorry, go ahead I Want let you finish this? Ah well then I want to bring you to the second part of this part of the talmud. Um, first this statement about the obligation to getting drunk but then.

01:06:57.91

Mitchell Gomez

No, no please I Just say that understanding feels very psychedelic to me.

01:07:09.72

shefaflow

There is a story so there's the halaha. There's the actually the the law code that is given. But then there isn't Agada There's a story that follows it and the story goes as follows Raba and rabizera my 2 ah. Comrades to rabbinic comrades. They were preparing a purim feast with each other and they became intoxicated to the point that raba arose and murdered Rabbi Zera the next day. When he became sober and he realized what he had done raba asked god for mercy and revived rabizera he brought him back from death the next year raba said to rabizera let the master you let the master come and let us prepare the purim feast with each other. And bezera said to him miracles do not happen each and every hour so you know this kind of ah to me this feels like the core harm reduction text that we find maybe not only in. Ah.

01:08:18.47

Mitchell Gomez

Um, yeah.

01:08:19.30

shefaflow

Purum. But maybe all of judaism that we don't rely on miracles and you know what? What do you see is the relationship between the 2 parts of this passage and the p talmah first you know the way that you were describing not only the obligation to drink on purum but this kind of ah. Psychedelic ethos that is commingled with judaism if not at the heart of judaism itself and then kind of contained by this story about what happens in reality. Um, when we start to actually put this into policy and how we then have to navigate. Relationships real harm potential death and I guess the only way to bring someone back from death itself is is a supernatural revival. How do you feel about this second half of the story.

01:09:09.84

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, so before answering those 2 things I do just want to note that that feels again like a coded message around psychedelic dissolving and reforming right? This idea that they got so altered that he died and then revived seems again to be 1 of those.

01:09:17.96

shefaflow

Please.

01:09:29.60

Mitchell Gomez

Coded hints around what psychedelics can do right? Yeah yeah I mean ah if you feed someone if you feed a person a super powerful psychedelic and they experience death.

01:09:32.76

shefaflow

Well, he was murdered robb. Ah Ra murdered him and then and then prayed for him to come back? Yeah, ah I see I see.

01:09:45.86

Mitchell Gomez

How would they frame that in within the psychedelic space. Yeah, he was he was murdered and then came back. Yeah, one of the early ah Christian communities that there's really strong evidence for psychedelic use around the phrase that they would have like over doorpost is if you die before you die, you won't die when you die.

01:10:00.81

shefaflow

Yes, of course.

01:10:05.64

Mitchell Gomez

Right? that this idea of like experiencing death allows you to better navigate when it happens. But yeah I think that that is a a clear message around harm reduction as Well. If you do a thing and experience significant harm because of it. Ah, you don't get to keep doing it under the excuse of ah I survived right? like I lived so it's okay, right I live So it's okay that I you know had to be intubated or I live. So it's okay that I was running around throwing bricks through windows or I mean these are all things that I've expected I've like watched happen right? I've I've. I've seen someone in a deep sort of State State of Psychedelic distress like smashing windows in a parking lot at a festival like that was ah, a real thing that I had to help navigate the person because like how do you approach this person without putting yourself in physical danger right? I mean this is a person who is experiencing something clearly very terrifying and is trying to defend themselves. So how you like navigate with that person. Ah yeah I think that as Jews we have not only an obligation to repair the world and to provide harm reduction services despite what the law may say. I Also think as individuals. Ah, we have an obligation to learn to use drugs safely if we want to use them right? You don't get to be cavalier about your own safety within Judaism Um, Ah, the cool nefe is is more than just a.

01:11:37.58

Mitchell Gomez

And obligation to save other lives. It is a moral principle that life itself is worth saving and that that includes you right? like your life is also worth saving. You can also violate mitzvote to save your own life right? I need to drive to the hospital on Chavez I think I'm having a heart attack. Like you can get in that car and drive. It is totally fine to do that. It is not just saving another life. It is saving life. Ah, and so if you are a ah ah Jew who uses drugs and I tend to extrapolate jewish moral principles out to the world at at large but that's probably not super appropriate but I'll speak as ah as a jew. Ah.

01:12:09.10

shefaflow

This.

01:12:15.68

Mitchell Gomez

I Do think we have an obligation to be careful and conscientious and intentional about how we move through the world whether that involves drugs or not right? Ah, you don't get to not wear your seat belt and speed as a jew. That is a violation of the moral principles by which we are commanded to live um or by which our ancient communities have chosen to live if you know like me you believe these things are developed not revealed. Ah you don't get to you don't get to be selfish in that way.

01:12:39.19

shefaflow

Are. Um.

01:12:51.93

Mitchell Gomez

Because that is fundamentally a sort of selfish attitude I will live my life. However I want and if I die I die. Ah, that's selfish. It's selfish not just in the sense that like somebody's going to have to deal with you right? if you do die. Ah, you're creating trauma in the world if you die that way. Ah, but also because we have a larger obligation to heal the world and just like within harm reduction keeping someone alive until they want to change their drug use is the first sort of principle of harm reduction. Right? You often hear like oh get them into treatment. It's like no keeping them alive with narcan means someday they may choose to enter treatment. They're never going to make that choice if they die. So our first step is to keep people alive until they want to change ah and the first step to. Fulfilling our obligation to heal. The world is being here to heal the world right? if you engage in really risky behavior and it ends your life. You have ended your ability to. Engage within Tikon Alum you and ended your ability to heal the world around you ah and have in many ways violated that principle you have violated that commandment. Um by not staying around until you couldn't anymore. Ah, and you know.

01:14:16.70

Mitchell Gomez

It's a painful subject like I've had many many friends who fast away from drugs I have friends who've volitionally ended their own lives I and I don't think either 1 of those are mine to judge right? How those people made those choices. Ah speaking for myself. This is an obligation I believe I have right is to be careful enough to be conscientious enough around how I engage with substances how I engage with the world. Ah that I can continue to be in the world and I can continue to do my best to heal the world. Ah, to repair the world to leave the world better than I entered it. Ah, because yeah, you know like we started off this conversation saying ah faults and prayers is a sin within judaism we. Don't get to say like ah ah it's it's okay, how shame we'll fix it like that's. That's not how it works. Ah, he fixed it. You know again within this cultural narrative the way in which god fixed the world was by giving it to us to steward that was the that was the moment where god fixed the world. Is he gave it to humanity and now it's ours with all that that entails. Ah and you know I see a lot of ways in which you know at this moment in time it feels strange not to talk about how.

01:15:49.90

Mitchell Gomez

Little I'm seeing around tik ko along within my israeli friends right? This idea that we have ah or the colon nefesh right? This idea that we have an obligation to protect life. An obligation to heal the world. And I've lost a lot of israeli friends by reminding them that that obligation does not exist only when politically easy that is an obligation that exists at all times and I I do fundamentally believe that people have a right to defend their lives from aggression. I do not believe that that right extends to causing harm to those who are not trying to harm you and that the ways in which I mean I wanted to make a t-shirt that said I hated Bb before it was cool because it's so true, but the ways in which I'm seeing Lee could ah.

01:16:34.49

shefaflow

Ah I think most Israelis would probably buy that you have a big market. Yeah.

01:16:38.67

Mitchell Gomez

but hey but I still shoot out of Israel I mean if if it yeah and it's most yeah look I you know look I marched against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan like what did that? do right? like it happened. Um I marched in Israel at Rabin Memorial rallies

01:16:54.90

Mitchell Gomez

With hundreds of thousands of other of ah of israelis right? I mean some of these rallies in the early two thousand s were huge number I mean a substantial percentage of the population was at some of these these rab memorial rallies I I am not extrapolating this out to israelis at large but. What I am saying is that these obligations if they don't exist when they're hard. They don't exist and that applies to ah things like geopolitical defense as much as it applies to drugs that we have an individual problematic relationship with There are I have absolutely no attraction to opiates I have never craved Numbness the times I've tried opiates I've found them to be boring and when I I stopp taking them. You know like I add a knee injury and a foot injury and a dog. But yeah I've had several large injuries in my life where I was prescribed opiates. And when I reached the end of my script I stopped and I never had ah a single craving for additional opiates. Ah stimulants I have to be careful around my relationship with and it would be in many ways, easy to not be careful with that relationship right? like just burn the candles at both end I got a lot to do. Like to do list is always growing like I love the way they make my brain twitch. Um, it would be very very easy to be cavalier with that relationship. Ah, and so that's where that obligation right? But cool neish comes not from when it's easy. But from when it's hard. Ah.

01:18:27.28

Mitchell Gomez

And so yeah, our obligation to save life starts with us because you're not saving any other lives if. You're not here and so pco neish begins as the individual and then spreads from the individual to society as a whole. Ah. Starting with our own community simply because I believe it's where we are most effective at engaging within these principles right? But my belief in tikun alum does not stop at the borders of my nation. It doesn't stop at the end of my family first right? My takunah alum does not stop at my family. It does not stop at my community. It does not stop at the borders of my nation. It does not stop at my species right? It is a top to bottom obligation to minimize harm. It is a. Call for harm reduction in the grandest sense I all the way down to I forget which rush it's from but this this obligation that like if you must kill an animal you have to do so as painlessly as possible, right? All of the wall around kashwood like.

01:19:35.89

shefaflow

Shrita. Yeah.

01:19:39.31

Mitchell Gomez

Thank you, thank you? Ah right? Literally the most painless way in which to take an animal's life is the way in which we are commanded to take their life. Ah, which if you think about the ancient world is really astonishing right? and that is really astonishing that judaism. Was thinking about minimizing harm to animals needed to survive thirty five hundred years ago like that is a narrative that still barely exists within the world and yet it was a core part. You cannot eat this animal. If it was killed in a way which caused it needless pain you are forbidden from consuming it if it was made to suffer before it died to me that makes clear that these obligations don't end at. Any arbitrary division. There is no point at which we get to draw a line and say on this side of the line those living creatures are worthy of life and worthy of ah our efforts to reduce our harms to them and on the other side of that line. Those creatures are not worthy of that. It doesn't even end at living beings I mean to me, it's an obligation to literally healed the world right? If you're going to extract resources from the world. We are required to do so in a way that is as we minimize the harms of that behavior. It's not a prohibition on taking an animal's life.

01:21:14.14

Mitchell Gomez

It's not a prohibition on extracting resources. It's not a prohibition on existing within the world. It is a principle that because our mere existence impacts the world we have to shape our existence in a way. That our benefit to the world outweighs the harm we have caused because we cannot.. It's not harm elimination like harm elimination is not a term that exists right? It's it's harm Reduction. We are required to reduce the harms that we cause top to bottom. Not just around drug use not just around sexual practices not just around protecting our hearing in everything we do from how we eat to how we navigate relationship to how we navigate political life to how we navigate resource extraction. How we navigate our own decisions our own minds. Our own bodies. We must as Jews Do everything we can in all of those spheres to maximize benefit and reduce harm and that's really beautiful like that's a really beautiful way of thinking about. Our place within the world. Our place within reality ah is that we don't choose to be here. But once here we can choose to make sure that we're a net gain to this thing.

01:22:44.38

Mitchell Gomez

This ever present now that exists.

01:22:46.53

shefaflow

Well in the voice of in somehow the voice of um maimonides mosha Ben Maimmon who opened up the guide to the perplexed in a most similar way right? The entire effort of the law. Is to maintain and preserve the life of the individual and the community I want to thank you? Ah Mitchell Gomez Mosha Aharon for your life and actually absolutely brotherly love within you? um.

01:23:20.56

Mitchell Gomez

My parents had high hopes. Um.

01:23:25.38

shefaflow

Um, thank you for your service to yourself to your communities. Your spheres of of impact and for this blessed world This gift to preserve.

01:23:40.29

Mitchell Gomez

Yeah, thank you for having me on was always really great talking with you I feel like we never get quite as much time as I wish we had so maybe someday. Well ah if I ever feel comfortable going back to Israel I'm not sure if it's going to happen but I very much miss it and very much someday would like to stand in front of the Kotel again.

01:23:54.59

shefaflow

Hopefully shoulder to shoulder Bezra hasham.